in retail, they say a happy customer rarely expresses their pleasant experience, and the disgruntled customer will never stop letting you (and everyone else) their unpleasant experience. back to this topic, related or not, why can we find numerous reasons to hate a human, and so few reasons to love one?
Ooh this is an interesting and chilling thing to reflect on. I think there would be some love left for the potential of who you thought they’d be? The seemingly innocent baby? I always think of the saying that every behavior is either an act of love or a call for love. But I don’t know where psychopathic killers who have no remorse fit into this equation.
It was military strategy that spelled doom for both the French and Americans. When we tried it with free fire zones, carpet bombing, and other incoherent responses we failed. The question is: How did the Germans, Americans, Vietnamese, convince so many average men And women to be complicit in mass murder?
I think it has to do with a sense of duty to their country. This is exactly why soldiers have mental health issues after war. The guilt must be devastating.
This is a profoundly disturbing and complicated question and I will probably regret trying to comment. Is such cruelty endemic or epidemic? Is it within our nature to be eluted by circumstance? In war, for example, despite superficial adherence to the "Rules of Warfare," atrocities occur frequently--the citizen soldier (Lieutenant Calley at My Lai during the Vietnam War, the concentration camps and murders of innocents during WWII, the fire-bombing of Dresden, Tokyo and other cities, the immolation of Hiroshima, the massive bombing campaigns in Gaza, the fact that 90% or more of all casualties in recent conflicts are civilian). We appear to adhere to the idea that organized, corporate violence, is somehow different from the isolated, individual atrocities committed by the few. But is it true that corporate violence somehow differs from such individual acts? I have often cited Reinhold Niebuhr's 1932 treatise, "Moral Man and Immoral Society" which argues that communal self-interest will dissipate moral restraints. At what point does this happen and to what effect?
That’s a great question - endemic or epidemic. I think neither. I think it’s in the air and we swallow it or spit it out. Environment and nurturing has everything to do with it. It’s in the water, so to speak. But I don’t believe this is original sin, so to speak. I don’t think we’re born evil. Putting sever mental illness aside for a moment, I think it’s learned and I think it’s a lack of love. I believe the Universe is a fundamentally benevolent place. And I don’t think we’re much different from animals in that way. We obviously have different consciousness, but that doesn’t mean we’re more inherently evil, it just means we’re more inherently prone to be evil.
I should explain that while I am a superannuated octogenarian academic, in my youth I was a soldier, a combat infantryman trained as a ranger and paratrooper. I have been witness and participant to much of the sustained violence of the century I was born into in the late 1930s. I have learned that it is easy to turn a teenager into an efficient assassin and calm the conscience of those pressing the levers of war. The pacific life, like democracy requires constant attention and cultivation. Sadly my generation is on the quickmarch to the exit and those who follow have hard lessons to learn.
Thanks for the context, Irving. I wouldn't say that you're superannuated, and I would agree that it's sad to lose the wisdom. I can only imagine what you're been through. And it's very poignant to hear you say that it is, in fact, easy to make a young person a killing machine. I don't doubt it, and perhaps easier now with VR headsets playing Call of Duty (WWII) with friends online
It's difficult to ascribe all such violence to greed. When Ho Chih Minh turned to the newly minted government of Mao at the onset of his revolt against French colonial rule, the Chinese cadres instituted a policy to separate the population from French political and military authority with a brutal campaign of intimidation and slaughter. It worked first against the French and then against the Americans. Viet Cong units would not hesitate to ambush groups of orphaned children in the care of French or American charitable or military units.
Just a quick interjection - Irving here is a person I would absolutely love to share a month's worth of long, slow, dinners with. I would ask one, seemingly simple question then just listen and learn 🖤
While I appreciate the compliment, I would advise caution. My dinner companion of 62 years, Sharon, might suggest a better approach. While an old man might have a lot to say, not all of it is worth hearing. It is best to exchange stories, ideas, histories and examine these in shared discourse. I am, perhaps, more interested in your world.
The only problem is that my use of the word, corporate, did not refer to commercial endorsement of war but as a generic descriptor of violence beyond the precincts of the human propensity for organized mayhem.
You can probably still love them. I doubt you'll get any love in return, though. I really think that people who commit acts like this are mean as hell and I don't really have a big interest in why they did it or what kind of background they have. There are lots of people with horrible childhoods who do not hurt others. It is always a choice, and you have to cross that line and some will and not even care for one second. Mental health is a real concern but many people with mental health issues don't ever hurt people. Anyone who is willing to go and hurt innocent people or animals is a person to be avoided. And the parents should never eliminate the possibility that the child will kill them, too, if given the chance. They might even picture them when they're killing somebody else. A very thought-provoking post, Rea. Awesome stuff.
agreed about morality. it's amazing what unconscious humans are capable of doing to themselves and others. the nearsightedness is amazing. what's more amazing is the educators, the enablers who don't see how they're creating and perpetuating it.
PS Just finished The Gospel According To Jesus, by Stephen Mitchell. Apparently, Jesus could love them. It's clear how. Not that I can explain it at the moment but I understand it when I read it.
Parents who are complicit by trying to hide it, create a sense of entitlement in the child. That doesn't teach them accountability for their actions. I wonder about unconscious actions. Many of them derive pleasure in killing. Can you be unconscious while enjoying something?
Probably so. Unconsciousness is simply denying the truth, not seeing reality, being lost in delusion. And it can be a conscious unconsciousness in a way - which is the heart of evil. Do you know what I mean? It’s one thing to be a warrior or a soldier and take some rum before battle to take the edge off. It’s a ritual or sorts. To rally yourself and steel your nerves because you might lose your life defending what you love. It’s another thing to knowingly go into an ego state that you know will protect you. I know that state. Whether you numb your nerves or the truth, you’re slipping below consciousness as a way of tamping down the voice of truth. It’s a mindset shift (a negative one) and it can become permanent or semi permanent (identity). Reminds me of American History X.
I also think that’s why Jesus emphasized forgiveness so much. The idea that it’s not actually permanent
This makes sense, Andrew. They aren't present in the real sense because they are lost in a delusion. In the presence of their own evil. Thank you for your engagement, I really enjoy it. You are incredibly insightful.
Thank you, Rea, I feel the same. You always ask the hard questions. I’m here for it.
CG Jung said, and I’m paraphrasing, that the biggest danger to mankind is himself. You see lots and lots of conscious people balking at what’s happening in the world. That’s encouraging. The sheer fact of the Information Age is a form of consciousness - that we’re aware of what’s happening across the globe. We can’t deny what we see (we can question it, but we are connected).
It’s not all dark, though. I especially love Louis CK. Best rape joke I’ve ever laughed at. And Jerry Seinfeld said it best - Louis said “I’ve heard all kinds of people laugh at that joke but I don’t know why we’re all okay with it”. He said if you took that joke (and it’s not an offensive joke) and just said it, it would be the worst thing anyone could say. But in the context and with the proper wording, it’s a very funny joke. Chris Rock said that’s the kind of joke you have to be famous to tell so you get away with it.
Jerry said, no - “he just tap danced over 6 laser beams. Jerry is right. A skillful joke is amazing because it sheds light on the right things and makes us see how silly our thinking can be in a light way. Louis is masterful. It’s healing when a comic can take us to somewhere painful and make us laugh there.
Your words bring up such painful, important truths. Thank you for having the courage to speak honestly about something so complex. It’s a reminder that love and morality are not always simple or unconditional.
From my experience, and much (informal) study, I can almost guarantee you that, if we had the opportunity to take an honest and real peak behind the curtain into all of these kids' short lives, we will find many significant adverse childhood experiences. In the case of children from "good homes", it's likely emotional neglect and "subtle" (as in not always visible) types of abuse. People who believe this doesn't matter and that they still have a choice because others with tough childhoods don't kill, are ignorant and perpetuating stigma that directly ties in with the CREATION of these "monsters". Neglect is one of the most severe forms of abuse, and directly affects a child's brain development, it prevents them from developing "normal" emotional responses. When a child does not have an attuned adult to coregulate with, how can they be expected to function in the world with empathy or conscience? These aren't things we are inherently born with. It's learned by means of mirror neurons and affected by our environment. Each person is also different. Hence the nature vs nurture argument. The society we live in, the system exacerbates the insanity that becomes us - we force mothers to return to work after giving birth within weeks, underserved communities don't even have weeks, mothers are separated from their newborns within days - that affects an infant's development hence the epidemic of anxiety in children. Parents are too stressed to be present with their children, to attune to their needs-strangers have to step into these demanding roles... That's one teeny tiny example of how fu*ked this society is. Those parents who try to sweep it under the rug don't care about those kids- they care about appearances. What those kids need is love, patience, a safe space and a secure attachment.
Nature versus nurture is a question that has plagued me for a long time. Does their environment create them, or are they born that way? I agree that children who grow up in a loveless home with physical and mental abuse can become killers. The boys who murdered the homeless man seem to be monsters created by their parents. If you look at the way they tried to keep it all from coming out. They make the precedent that anything is acceptable, but don't get caught.
Mental illness is a huge influence as well. We can make all kinds of assumptions, but we will never know what goes on in the mind of a killer.
Thank you for taking the time to read and expressing your opinion. I appreciate the interaction. We need to talk about this if we want our world to change.
Wow, this is a tough one. When does unconditional love take a turn. Should it? Definitely not questions for me to answer but man, I’ve found myself in a quandary here.
Got a bit stuck on the homeless man- it’s my opinion the vulnerable should be the most protected. It sickens me but underneath is abject sadness for the cruelty we inflict on others whose lives are deemed less valuable than others. None of us have real security but the illusionary fortresses we hide in allow us feel as though we do. Many don’t have that and it bleeds my heart dry.
A sense of duty to their country? I think this is the reason why so many soldiers suffer from PTSD and other mental health troubles. I won't be able to sleep.
gosh. so much to ponder here.
in retail, they say a happy customer rarely expresses their pleasant experience, and the disgruntled customer will never stop letting you (and everyone else) their unpleasant experience. back to this topic, related or not, why can we find numerous reasons to hate a human, and so few reasons to love one?
Love is missing. You are right, Pen.
Ooh this is an interesting and chilling thing to reflect on. I think there would be some love left for the potential of who you thought they’d be? The seemingly innocent baby? I always think of the saying that every behavior is either an act of love or a call for love. But I don’t know where psychopathic killers who have no remorse fit into this equation.
I think it must be agonising for the parents. I don't understand what happens in their minds. Thanks for your comment, Stephanie.
It was military strategy that spelled doom for both the French and Americans. When we tried it with free fire zones, carpet bombing, and other incoherent responses we failed. The question is: How did the Germans, Americans, Vietnamese, convince so many average men And women to be complicit in mass murder?
I think it has to do with a sense of duty to their country. This is exactly why soldiers have mental health issues after war. The guilt must be devastating.
And rage. Always the rage.
War is abhorrent.
This is a profoundly disturbing and complicated question and I will probably regret trying to comment. Is such cruelty endemic or epidemic? Is it within our nature to be eluted by circumstance? In war, for example, despite superficial adherence to the "Rules of Warfare," atrocities occur frequently--the citizen soldier (Lieutenant Calley at My Lai during the Vietnam War, the concentration camps and murders of innocents during WWII, the fire-bombing of Dresden, Tokyo and other cities, the immolation of Hiroshima, the massive bombing campaigns in Gaza, the fact that 90% or more of all casualties in recent conflicts are civilian). We appear to adhere to the idea that organized, corporate violence, is somehow different from the isolated, individual atrocities committed by the few. But is it true that corporate violence somehow differs from such individual acts? I have often cited Reinhold Niebuhr's 1932 treatise, "Moral Man and Immoral Society" which argues that communal self-interest will dissipate moral restraints. At what point does this happen and to what effect?
That’s a great question - endemic or epidemic. I think neither. I think it’s in the air and we swallow it or spit it out. Environment and nurturing has everything to do with it. It’s in the water, so to speak. But I don’t believe this is original sin, so to speak. I don’t think we’re born evil. Putting sever mental illness aside for a moment, I think it’s learned and I think it’s a lack of love. I believe the Universe is a fundamentally benevolent place. And I don’t think we’re much different from animals in that way. We obviously have different consciousness, but that doesn’t mean we’re more inherently evil, it just means we’re more inherently prone to be evil.
I should explain that while I am a superannuated octogenarian academic, in my youth I was a soldier, a combat infantryman trained as a ranger and paratrooper. I have been witness and participant to much of the sustained violence of the century I was born into in the late 1930s. I have learned that it is easy to turn a teenager into an efficient assassin and calm the conscience of those pressing the levers of war. The pacific life, like democracy requires constant attention and cultivation. Sadly my generation is on the quickmarch to the exit and those who follow have hard lessons to learn.
Thanks for the context, Irving. I wouldn't say that you're superannuated, and I would agree that it's sad to lose the wisdom. I can only imagine what you're been through. And it's very poignant to hear you say that it is, in fact, easy to make a young person a killing machine. I don't doubt it, and perhaps easier now with VR headsets playing Call of Duty (WWII) with friends online
I agree with you, Irving. I don't think it is any different from individual murders. It is murder on a grand scale, in the name of greed.
It's difficult to ascribe all such violence to greed. When Ho Chih Minh turned to the newly minted government of Mao at the onset of his revolt against French colonial rule, the Chinese cadres instituted a policy to separate the population from French political and military authority with a brutal campaign of intimidation and slaughter. It worked first against the French and then against the Americans. Viet Cong units would not hesitate to ambush groups of orphaned children in the care of French or American charitable or military units.
Just a quick interjection - Irving here is a person I would absolutely love to share a month's worth of long, slow, dinners with. I would ask one, seemingly simple question then just listen and learn 🖤
That's all. As you were...
While I appreciate the compliment, I would advise caution. My dinner companion of 62 years, Sharon, might suggest a better approach. While an old man might have a lot to say, not all of it is worth hearing. It is best to exchange stories, ideas, histories and examine these in shared discourse. I am, perhaps, more interested in your world.
I’m with Rea on this. Greed is at the heart. If you read Bell Hooks and Prentis Hemphill on this subject you might agree.
The only problem is that my use of the word, corporate, did not refer to commercial endorsement of war but as a generic descriptor of violence beyond the precincts of the human propensity for organized mayhem.
Bloodlust, drunk on power? It could also be hatred against their colonialists. What was your take on it?
You can probably still love them. I doubt you'll get any love in return, though. I really think that people who commit acts like this are mean as hell and I don't really have a big interest in why they did it or what kind of background they have. There are lots of people with horrible childhoods who do not hurt others. It is always a choice, and you have to cross that line and some will and not even care for one second. Mental health is a real concern but many people with mental health issues don't ever hurt people. Anyone who is willing to go and hurt innocent people or animals is a person to be avoided. And the parents should never eliminate the possibility that the child will kill them, too, if given the chance. They might even picture them when they're killing somebody else. A very thought-provoking post, Rea. Awesome stuff.
I agree with you, Parker. What's to stop them from killing their parents?
agreed about morality. it's amazing what unconscious humans are capable of doing to themselves and others. the nearsightedness is amazing. what's more amazing is the educators, the enablers who don't see how they're creating and perpetuating it.
PS Just finished The Gospel According To Jesus, by Stephen Mitchell. Apparently, Jesus could love them. It's clear how. Not that I can explain it at the moment but I understand it when I read it.
Parents who are complicit by trying to hide it, create a sense of entitlement in the child. That doesn't teach them accountability for their actions. I wonder about unconscious actions. Many of them derive pleasure in killing. Can you be unconscious while enjoying something?
Probably so. Unconsciousness is simply denying the truth, not seeing reality, being lost in delusion. And it can be a conscious unconsciousness in a way - which is the heart of evil. Do you know what I mean? It’s one thing to be a warrior or a soldier and take some rum before battle to take the edge off. It’s a ritual or sorts. To rally yourself and steel your nerves because you might lose your life defending what you love. It’s another thing to knowingly go into an ego state that you know will protect you. I know that state. Whether you numb your nerves or the truth, you’re slipping below consciousness as a way of tamping down the voice of truth. It’s a mindset shift (a negative one) and it can become permanent or semi permanent (identity). Reminds me of American History X.
I also think that’s why Jesus emphasized forgiveness so much. The idea that it’s not actually permanent
This makes sense, Andrew. They aren't present in the real sense because they are lost in a delusion. In the presence of their own evil. Thank you for your engagement, I really enjoy it. You are incredibly insightful.
Thank you, Rea, I feel the same. You always ask the hard questions. I’m here for it.
CG Jung said, and I’m paraphrasing, that the biggest danger to mankind is himself. You see lots and lots of conscious people balking at what’s happening in the world. That’s encouraging. The sheer fact of the Information Age is a form of consciousness - that we’re aware of what’s happening across the globe. We can’t deny what we see (we can question it, but we are connected).
It’s not all dark, though. I especially love Louis CK. Best rape joke I’ve ever laughed at. And Jerry Seinfeld said it best - Louis said “I’ve heard all kinds of people laugh at that joke but I don’t know why we’re all okay with it”. He said if you took that joke (and it’s not an offensive joke) and just said it, it would be the worst thing anyone could say. But in the context and with the proper wording, it’s a very funny joke. Chris Rock said that’s the kind of joke you have to be famous to tell so you get away with it.
Jerry said, no - “he just tap danced over 6 laser beams. Jerry is right. A skillful joke is amazing because it sheds light on the right things and makes us see how silly our thinking can be in a light way. Louis is masterful. It’s healing when a comic can take us to somewhere painful and make us laugh there.
The biggest danger to mankind is himself. I completely agree!
Your words bring up such painful, important truths. Thank you for having the courage to speak honestly about something so complex. It’s a reminder that love and morality are not always simple or unconditional.
Nothing in life is ever simple. Thank you.
Yeah I don't know if my child will be loved the way a mother is supposed to love her child if he/she commited murder.
It’s a difficult question to answer.
Thought-provoking. It must be so hard for the parents dealing with this. Have you seen ‘Adolescence’? A 4 part Netflix show…chilling!
Yes, I watched it, Esther. The agony the parents must struggle with is heartbreaking. Thank you for commenting. ❤️
From my experience, and much (informal) study, I can almost guarantee you that, if we had the opportunity to take an honest and real peak behind the curtain into all of these kids' short lives, we will find many significant adverse childhood experiences. In the case of children from "good homes", it's likely emotional neglect and "subtle" (as in not always visible) types of abuse. People who believe this doesn't matter and that they still have a choice because others with tough childhoods don't kill, are ignorant and perpetuating stigma that directly ties in with the CREATION of these "monsters". Neglect is one of the most severe forms of abuse, and directly affects a child's brain development, it prevents them from developing "normal" emotional responses. When a child does not have an attuned adult to coregulate with, how can they be expected to function in the world with empathy or conscience? These aren't things we are inherently born with. It's learned by means of mirror neurons and affected by our environment. Each person is also different. Hence the nature vs nurture argument. The society we live in, the system exacerbates the insanity that becomes us - we force mothers to return to work after giving birth within weeks, underserved communities don't even have weeks, mothers are separated from their newborns within days - that affects an infant's development hence the epidemic of anxiety in children. Parents are too stressed to be present with their children, to attune to their needs-strangers have to step into these demanding roles... That's one teeny tiny example of how fu*ked this society is. Those parents who try to sweep it under the rug don't care about those kids- they care about appearances. What those kids need is love, patience, a safe space and a secure attachment.
Nature versus nurture is a question that has plagued me for a long time. Does their environment create them, or are they born that way? I agree that children who grow up in a loveless home with physical and mental abuse can become killers. The boys who murdered the homeless man seem to be monsters created by their parents. If you look at the way they tried to keep it all from coming out. They make the precedent that anything is acceptable, but don't get caught.
Mental illness is a huge influence as well. We can make all kinds of assumptions, but we will never know what goes on in the mind of a killer.
Thank you for taking the time to read and expressing your opinion. I appreciate the interaction. We need to talk about this if we want our world to change.
Sending love, my friend.
Wow, this is a tough one. When does unconditional love take a turn. Should it? Definitely not questions for me to answer but man, I’ve found myself in a quandary here.
Got a bit stuck on the homeless man- it’s my opinion the vulnerable should be the most protected. It sickens me but underneath is abject sadness for the cruelty we inflict on others whose lives are deemed less valuable than others. None of us have real security but the illusionary fortresses we hide in allow us feel as though we do. Many don’t have that and it bleeds my heart dry.
Thought provoking read, to say the least. <3
That hit me hard too, Jenny! Thank you for your comment.
Love is always there i guess
It must be a hellish situation, Bella. Torn between love and guilt.
Love is what's missing in their hearts. You are right, Pen.
A sense of duty to their country? I think this is the reason why so many soldiers suffer from PTSD and other mental health troubles. I won't be able to sleep.